A consideration of the passages in Hebrews previously listed by essay, with supposed allusions to certain apocryphal writings.

Hebrews 1:2-3 compared to Wisdom of Solomon 7:22-8:1
Heb 1:1-4
1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature,
upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the
name he has obtained is more excellent than theirs. RSV

Wisdom 7:22-[22] for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.
For in her there is a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen, irresistible,
[23] beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all-powerful, overseeing all, and penetrating through all spirits that are intelligent and pure and most subtle.
[24] For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things.
[25] For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
[26] For she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.
[27] Though she is but one, she can do all things, and while remaining in herself, she renews all things; in every generation she passes into holy souls and makes them friends of God, and prophets;
[28] for God loves nothing so much as the man who lives with wisdom.
[29] For she is more beautiful than the sun, and excels every constellation of the stars. Compared with the light she is found to be superior,
[30] for it is succeeded by the night, but against wisdom evil does not prevail.
8[1] She reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and she orders all things well.

This Wisdom passage might be a good one for the feminist theologians who wish to re-imagine and redefine the nature of God. It does seem to allude to the Biblical book of Proverbs, especially Proverbs 8, where wisdom is described in feminine terms, as the first thing God brought forth,
before the physical creation (see especially Proverbs 8:22-33). As noted in some previous comparisons regarding the book of James, if the writer of Hebrews were alluding to something previously written, it is more likely Proverbs that he alludes to than Wisdom. I wonder how the writer of Hebrews could have made his point about the identification of Jesus with God without using language that would have some similarity to the broad phrasing of Wisdom? There are certainly some striking contrasts between the message of Wisdom and that of Hebrews. While Wisdom
describes wisdom in terms of pureness, Hebrews describes Jesus as making purification, a redemptive theme that is significantly absent the adulation of wisdom in the WS passage. Perhaps the writer of Hebrews was familiar with WS, perhaps not. He must have been familiar with Habbakuk though.
2 O LORD, I have heard the report of thee,
and thy work, O LORD, do I fear.
In the midst of the years renew it;
in the midst of the years make it known;
in wrath remember mercy.
3 God came from Teman,
and the Holy One from Mount Paran.
His glory covered the heavens,
and the earth was full of his praise.
Selah
4 His brightness was like the light,
rays flashed from his hand;
and there he veiled his power.
Hab. 3:2-4 RSV

Comparing Hebrews 4:13 to Wisdom of Solomon 1:6
Heb 4:13 And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do. RSV

WS 1: [6] For wisdom is a kindly spirit and
will not free a blasphemer from the guilt of his words;
because God is witness of his inmost feelings,
and a true observer of his heart, and a hearer of his tongue.

But of course long before the writing of either WS or Hebrews the Psalmist had already written:
Ps 139:13-24
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
...
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
...
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
...
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting. NIV

Comparing Hebrews 11:2ff to Sirach 44:10ff and 1Maccabees 2:51-64
These are lengthy passages, the Hebrews passage being what is sometimes referred to as the faith chapter or from verse 4 onward, heroes of the faith. The emphasis in Hebrews is on the value and victory that comes by faith in God. The emphasis in Sirach and 1
Maccabees is to encouragel loyalty to the Maccabean leaders. The Sirach passage is only included in part, as it continues for seven chapters.

Sir.44
[1] Let us now praise famous men,
and our fathers in their generations.
[2] The Lord apportioned to them great glory,
his majesty from the beginning.
[3] There were those who ruled in their kingdoms,
and were men renowned for their power,
giving counsel by their understanding,
and proclaiming prophecies;
[4] leaders of the people in their deliberations
and in understanding of learning for the people,
wise in their words of instruction;
[5] those who composed musical tunes,
and set forth verses in writing;
[6] rich men furnished with resources,
living peaceably in their habitations --
[7] all these were honored in their generations,
and were the glory of their times.
[8] There are some of them who have left a name,
so that men declare their praise.
[9] And there are some who have no memorial,
who have perished as though they had not lived;
they have become as though they had not been born,
and so have their children after them.
[10] But these were men of mercy,
whose righteous deeds have not been forgotten;
[11] their prosperity will remain with their descendants,
and their inheritance to their children's children.
[12] Their descendants stand by the covenants;
their children also, for their sake.
[13] Their posterity will continue for ever,
and their glory will not be blotted out.
[14] Their bodies were buried in peace,
and their name lives to all generations.
[15] Peoples will declare their wisdom,
and the congregation proclaims their praise.

[16] Enoch pleased the Lord, and was taken up;
he was an example of repentance to all generations.

[17] Noah was found perfect and righteous;
in the time of wrath he was taken in exchange;
therefore a remnant was left to the earth
when the flood came.
[18] Everlasting covenants were made with him
that all flesh should not be blotted out by a flood.

[19] Abraham was the great father of a multitude of nations,
and no one has been found like him in glory;
[20] he kept the law of the Most High,
and was taken into covenant with him;
he established the covenant in his flesh,
and when he was tested he was found faithful.

(and indeed the rehearsal of the history of Israel's leaders goes on through chapter 50, up to the Maccabean priests)

1 Maccabees 2:49-69
[49] Now the days drew near for Mattathias to die, and he said to his sons: "Arrogance and reproach have now become strong; it is a time of ruin and furious anger.

[50] Now, my children, show zeal for the law, and give your lives for the covenant of our fathers.
[51] "Remember the deeds of the fathers, which they did in their generations; and receive great
honor and an everlasting name.
[52] Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?
[53] Joseph in the time of his distress kept the commandment, and became lord of Egypt.
[54] Phinehas our father, because he was deeply zealous, received the covenant of everlasting
priesthood.
[55] Joshua, because he fulfilled the command, became a judge in Israel.
[56] Caleb, because he testified in the assembly, received an inheritance in the land.
[57] David, because he was merciful, inherited the throne of the kingdom for ever.
[58] Elijah because of great zeal for the law was taken up into heaven.
[59] Hannaniah, Azariah, and Mishael believed and were saved from the flame.
[60] Daniel because of his innocence was delivered from the mouth of the lions.
[61] "And so observe, from generation to generation, that none who put their trust in him will
lack strength.
[62] Do not fear the words of a sinner, for his splendor will turn into dung and worms.
[63] Today he will be exalted, but tomorrow he will not be found, because he has returned to the
dust, and his plans will perish.
[64] My children, be courageous and grow strong in the law, for by it you will gain honor.
[65] "Now behold, I know that Simeon your brother is wise in counsel; always listen to him; he
shall be your father.
[66 ] Judas Maccabeus has been a mighty warrior from his youth; he shall command the army for
you and fight the battle against the peoples.
[67] You shall rally about you all who observe the law, and avenge the wrong done to your
people.
[68] Pay back the Gentiles in full, and heed what the law commands."
[69] Then he blessed them, and was gathered to his fathers.

essay wrote: The first and third of the latter group are especially interesting. In Heb1:2-3,
the author substitutes Christ for the 'Spirit of Wisdom' (Holy Spirit) of WS. In Heb11:2ff, this 'list of heroes' is, as far as I know, found nowhere in the protocanonical OT (though of course the 'heroes' are referred to separately), yet both Sirach and 1 Maccabees have the list as such.

Regarding the hero lists, I would agree that this same list (as a list) is not found in the Old Testament, but then while the three lists above do have some names in common, inevitably since they draw from one set of actual records in the Old Testament, they differ as well in important ways. Hebrews for example starts with Abel, while Sirach starts with Enoch and Maccabees with Abraham. Both Sirach and Maccabees draw
on later names as well, in the Maccabean period, which Hebrews does not (an evidence of the closed canon recognized by the writer of Hebrews). It would be difficult to make such a list and not cover at least some of the same names as Sirach, since that author tried to include nearly
everyone. And yet Sirach missed several at that. Perhaps it should be noted that neither Sirach nor Maccabees mentioned any women in their hero lists, whereas Hebrews mentions Sarah 11:11), and the parents of Moses (11:23), and Rahab (11:31), and other women of faith (11:35).
Furthermore, while 1 Maccabees is generally good history and well written, there are earlier glimpses of supporting a point or making a case with lists of heroes. We have the hero lists associated with David (2 Samuel 23:8ff for example, or 1 Chronicles 11), but there are also brief Old Testament lists that are good precursors to the style in Hebrews. Psalm 99 in particular provides a virtual outline
for Hebrews 9-12, from the tabernacle where God is approached (God enthroned between the cherubim), to his justice, to the faithful hero list (Moses, Aaron and Samuel in the Psalm), to the holy mountain, first Sinai and then Jerusalem. Notice also Ezekiel 14:19-20. Another example of building a case by the rehearsal of history (and the attendant names) is found in Stephen's defense in Acts 7. It must have been a widely used method of making a case in New Testament times.

essay wrote: Finally (for now - I'll provide more if you wish), a striking example from Acts: Acts9:18>Tobit11:12-13

A comment: To me, this is a strange comparison to call striking. I think the idea that there is even the glimmer of a remote connection between these stories is bizarre, and sad. At
every point where Luke can be checked, and there are many, he is found to an accurate historian. The same is not even remotely true for Tobit. Luke is direct and matter-of-fact in his description of God's work. Tobit is ... something else. Nevertheless, for our consideration, here is the briefly stated account of Paul's recovery from blindness, reported by Luke in Acts, and the much lengthier and even stranger account of the blindness and eventual healing of Tobit, found in the apocryphal book of Tobit. I include also the account of how Tobit lost his sight. For the sake of background in the Tobit story, Tobit is the father, Tobias his adult son, and Raphael the proto-Touched-by-An-Angel sidekick, an angel in disguise.

Acts 9:17-19 17 So Anani'as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 And immediately
something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.
For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus. RSV

Tobit 2:6-10
[6] Then I remembered the prophecy of Amos, how he said, "Your feasts shall be turned into mourning, and all your festivities into lamentation." And I wept.
[7] When the sun had set I went and dug a grave and buried the body.
[8 ] And my neighbors laughed at me and said, "He is no longer afraid that he will be put to death for doing this; he once ran away, and here he is burying the dead again!"
[9] On the same night I returned from burying him, and because I was defiled I slept by the wall of the courtyard, and my face was uncovered.
[10] I did not know that there were sparrows on the wall and their fresh droppings fell into my open eyes and white films formed on my eyes. I went to physicians, but they did not help me. Ahikar, however, took care of me until he went to Elymais.
Tobit 11:1-16
[1] After this Tobias went on his way, praising God because he had made his journey a success. And he blessed Raguel and his wife Edna. So he continued on his way until they came near to Nineveh.
[2] Then Raphael said to Tobias, "Are you not aware, brother, of how you left your father?
[3] Let us run ahead of your wife and prepare the house.
[4] And take the gall of the fish with you." So they went their way, and the dog went along behind them.
[5] Now Anna sat looking intently down the road for her son.
[6 ] And she caught sight of him coming, and said to his father, "Behold, your son is coming, and so is the man who went with him!"
[7] Raphael said, "I know, Tobias, that your father will open his eyes.
[8 ] You therefore must anoint his eyes with the gall; and when they smart he will rub them, and will cause the white films to fall away, and he will see you."
[9] Then Anna ran to meet them, and embraced her son, and said to him, "I have seen you, my child; now I am ready to die." And they both wept.
[10] Tobit started toward the door, and stumbled. But his son ran to him
[11] and took hold of his father, and he sprinkled the gall upon his father's eyes, saying, "Be of good cheer, father."
[12] And when his eyes began to smart he rubbed them,
[13] and the white films scaled off from the corners of his eyes.
[14 ] Then he saw his son and embraced him, and he wept and said, "Blessed art thou, O God, and blessed is thy name for ever, and blessed are all thy holy angels.
[15] For thou hast afflicted me, but thou hast had mercy upon me; here I see my son Tobias!" And his son went in rejoicing, and he reported to his father the great things that had happened to him in Media.
[16] Then Tobit went out to meet his daughter-in-law at the gate of Nineveh, rejoicing and praising God. Those who saw him as he went were amazed because he could see.

Apparently the idea of allusion here is the white films (Tobit 11:8) and something like scales (Acts 9:18), as though Luke has borrowed the idea. The mind boggles. Back in message #692 the idea was expressed that there were dozens or scores of New Testament references or allusions - indirect references - to the apocryphal books. This must give a whole new meaning to the concept of indirect. Perhaps my words are unkind, and I should not be unkind about this, because in reference to this Tobit passage what I really feel is sadness and puzzlement. To perceive irreconcilable differences between Genesis 1 and 2 and at the same time allusions to Tobit in Acts suggests a disastrously crippling perspective. Perhaps though, that brings us to the next thought.

essay wrote:Regarding Fundamentalism, to me it has two components:

1. Asserting that the Bible is literally true in matters not directly related to our relationship with God, for example astronomy, biology, and the other sciences, and history. This is contrary to reason.

Guilty as charged, I am persuaded that the Bible is true. It is not blind confidence, but a reasoned conclusion. When the Bible speaks of the human body or nature or history, it reports the truth. There is no void between God's knowledge of spiritual and physical truth, and no void in his ability to communicate about either and both. This is not contrary to reason, but rather is supported by compelling evidence. It is contrary to
reason to suppose that God could or would communicate meaningful truth about ethics or religion, but could not or would not do so in regard to the cosmos itself or the humans he placed in it. It is contrary to reason to suppose that men can sort through the scriptures and sift out
selected bits of spiritual truth while discarding the entire space-time-historical frame of reference everywhere upheld by every author in every text of scripture as the true work of God. Nor is it
reasonable to suppose that there is a disconnection between astronomy or biology and our relationship with God. Whether it be Psalm 19 or Romans 1, the connection between what is observable and the nature of God and man is unbreakable.

essay wrote:2. Asserting that man is saved through 'faith alone' or by following some other shibboleths or catch phrases, which are seldom explained, or whose explanation varies from sect to sect and even person to person. This is contrary to Christ's entire ministry.

Of course, your definition of Fundamentalism is not what the word technically refers to. The word refers to a specific 20th century American religious movement that is much narrower than your definition, but the popular press has tended to use the word much more broadly and
vaguely, and pejoratively, so your are not alone in that. With regard to your definition, I cannot qualify on point 2, unless you are quite broad in what you mean by shibboleths or catch phrases. I do believe, because the Bible teaches it, that faith is necessary for salvation. Not faith in faith, but faith in God, and for that matter, faith in Jesus Christ. Certainly, apart from the grace of God, faith could do nothing truly important. Man is not saved by faith alone but no one will be saved without faith. And again, faith without submission or obedience is meaningless. The Bible teaches responses such as confessing the name of Jesus, turning away from sin, being baptized into Christ, doing good works and generally living a life of service and love in obedience to Christ and imitation of him. Salvation is not merely a solitary event, but a process.

essay wrote: To me, the essence of Christianity is to follow Christ's teachings and to try to model one's life after His. In both of these endeavors, of course, the Christian will always fall short, but the important thing is to fight the good fight and keep trying to the end. If a person says that s/he is 'saved by faith alone', and exhibits that faith by living in imitation of Christ, then I regard that person also as a true Christian regardless of their sect.

A question, not an argument: In terms of the statement above, how does the church fit into this picture? You believe in being a Christian, what do you believe about church, it's role, it's necessity, what it is?